Talk:Hau Kāinga/Pūranga

He Pūranga tēnei o te whārangi kōrero o te Hau Kāinga.

Some of these comments could be just as good or better on our general talk page. Anyone who likes can copy to there; but Hau Kāinga is a good page to look at when thinking about these points.

"Te" in page names

Some readers may have noticed in my recent page history comment that I was wondering whether page names should include "Te".

Only one of our articles currently does (te reo Maori); but a great many of the links in Hau Kāinga are looking to create pages starting with "Te".

Here are some reasons AGAINST:

• Browsing an alpha list of pages would be less easy
• Where the main word is used after other words ("ngā" being the commonest, but some of you can think of others), editing would require much more work, eg ngā [[te reo|reo]] instead of ngā [[reo]] .
• Dictionaries and other encyclopedias don't.

Robin Patterson 03:12, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think you're probably right - it makes sense not to include "te". -- Vardion 02:28, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

Ka pai! Thanks for dropping by and adding to your already long list of contributions. You may notice I already excluded most of the "te" from the links. Robin Patterson 11:38, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

Coloured boxes

Robin here again. Can someone (preferably the person who composed or translated the heading) explain the meaning - and perhaps the envisaged long-term scope - of "Iwi Whānui" (so that some of us can get a better idea of whether it might be just as good underneath the much bigger box)? It looks a bit small since I moved the stuff that didn't relate to this Māori Wikipedia. 202.27.88.100 06:38, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(Sorry about the slow response - I didn't notice this question...). I intended Iwi Whānui to mean "community", as in the Wikipedia community. Whether I've used the term in the proper context, I'm not entirely certain. The box was based on the equivalent one on the old English Wikipedia main page, which served much the same function as the new Community Portal page. -- Vardion 02:28, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

E pai ana, e hoa! I had worked out that you probably meant something like that (which means my translation sources must agree with yours). I'm considering moving it too, to go BELOW the specifically NZ material, so that the NZ columns have more room to display and expand. We have such a swag of material there, with scope for much more, and those specifically Maori subjects are what most of our serious visitors will have come to see - not the general Wikipedia links. I would be pleased if you decided to move it there, because you are far more used to tables than I am!

Now I hope you and less frequent visitors have a glance at most of the new additions and changes, with a harder look at some of them. Kind regards - Robin Patterson 11:38, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

New Meta page - List of articles all languages should have

Hi. I dont know if this is the right place to post this, but you may want to see our new Meta page: List of articles all languages should have. It is intended to give a boost to the smaller languages. Hope it helps. 64.12.116.12 20:27, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

• Good place for that. Food for thought. Robin Patterson 06:10, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

OK, had a look. Impressive list, which could be a handy checklist. But it's not finished yet, so we had better revisit the Meta page from time to time. The Latin WP has made a copy, which is in the process of being translated (with Simple English visible as links.) - Robin Patterson 08:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contacting speakers; contributions from learners

Hi, has anyone contacted any of the grassroots organizations yet? Just curious. Though I imagine even a sort of "simple Maori" (i.e. Maori composed using available vocabulary) written by young learners would be useful. 67.242.13.42 17:02, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I have (as mentioned on the "Korero" page) communicated in one way or another with Maori TV, the Maori Language Commission, CommunityNet, and several tribal websites or guestbooks. More approaches planned. Also mentioned it to all or most NZ members of the English Wikipedia. And as a new though old learner I've contributed about 95% of the articles. Ever hopeful of getting significant contributions from more than the current handful of contributors who know more than I do. Kia ora koe. Robin Patterson 22:40, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removal of Māori-language content from the main page (and elsewhere)

I'm not prepared to allow it unless it is replaced in the same edit by better-quality Māori material. Robin Patterson 11:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Revert of node_ue's changes

Hi Robin, hi node_ue,

I have reverted the two changes by node_ue. 1) concerning the position of the English intro: 1.1) I firmly believe that it is up to the mi team to decide where to place this invitation for English-speaking people. Unfortunately the majority of ethnic Maoris do not speak their own language well. Besides Maori is official language in New Zealand, and we have to assume that a

Yes, that is certainly true, but this Wikipedia is for people who DO speak Maori, not just everyone of a Maori ethnic background.

great number of people from New Zealand with non-Maori background will just come around to have a look. From what I know, at least a bit of Maori is taught to everyone in NZ at school. So node_ue, you do not have to be the language police here. Just leave it up to true Kiwis to decide where to put this. So far I have not seen any complaints about the mi main page, apart from you, who are neither Maori nor Kiwi.

Why should being from Germany give you any more authority than me, if you're not Maori? And if being from New Zealand is such a big deal, why is Rocastelo a sysop, hailing from Galicia in Spain? And why do you presume so much authority, being in Hamburg?

1.2) While it might be arguable, whether or not the English invitation deserves the first line, I think that it is definitely out of place where node placed it. It is below a longer paragraph in English. I think a good place would be an info box in a right column. But I do not want to

I don't think it's arguable. I think it DEFINITELY doesn't belong on the first line. I just didn't want to remove it altogether because I knew Robin Patterson would have a fit.

interfere with that. Let us just leave that for the Maori team to decide. And node: you and I do not belong to this team. So just leave them in peace.

Please see Template:Stub which I recently improved. What are your contributions here? What are your qualifications? Is your Maori any better than mine? Are you Maori? Or are you a white guy who can't speak very much Maori at all, and who likes to think he's more qualified than others just because he's from Germany?? And if I have no business here, what business do you have here Heiko? Why don't you go work on the Low Saxon Wikipedia?

Also, I find your view of Wikipedia communities as exclusive and impenetrable laughable and at the same time very offensive. The whole point of Wikipedia is collaboration, not saying "Ha ha ha! You can't join!".

2) Concerning the Macron-edit: 2.1) node, your version has added two links, one to "Haere mai" and one to "Wikipedia". But these two pages do not exist so far. Of course a page about Wikipedia will eventually be written. But we

So what? That's what redlinks are for. So that people will make the pages there.

do not know whether the mi team will have a separate page "Haere mai", which (as far as I know) means welcome. So I think it would have been better in this case to wait until such a page exists before it is linked to.

Why wouldn't we have one here? Most other Wikipedias have one. I think that we, as a community striving to build a Maori-language Wikipedia, are desparately in need of a good welcome page in Maori that explains who we are, what we are all about, and how to edit Wikipedia. Redlinks are an invitation for the creation of such pages.

2.2) the macron-text was inside a comment, so it is not visible and it did not annoy anyone but the language police. For someone who was blocked for a week here, node, I think that this is not a good restart for you here.

Heiko, in case you didn't notice, the exact same text is reproduced in MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning and so the comment on each page has been rendered obsolete. Currently, it's a waste of space.

My proposition to node: before making any further changes in any article, you should propose your changes in a *friendly* way on the corresponding talk page. Otherwise I fear you are in danger of getting a much, much longer blocking here.

My proposition to you, Heiko: either join a community, or stay out, but don't sit on the fence telling people they can't come in when you aren't really even in yourself.

My proposition to Robin: write protect the main page. You have had trouble enough about it. Everyone would still be able to leave comments in the talk page.

• MY* proposition to Robin: Revert Heiko Evermann's changes, or at least unprotect the page. mi.wiki is relatively low-traffic, explicit vandalism to the mainpage is generally fixed very quickly and doesn't happen very often at that. As a Wikipedia page, the whole point is for it to be editable by everyone. Sure, there may be some edit conflicts, but unless it degenerates into a full-scale edit war, protection is unreasonable.

For examples of relatively large Wikipedias that don't have protected mainpages for the very reasons I gave above: Estonian, with over 10700 articles; Korean, with over 11700 articles; Ukrainian, with over 19100 articles... Compared to the less than 1000 articles on the Maori Wikipedia, don't you think that it's a bit unreasonable for us to have a protected mainpage? You may think these people never deal with revert wars or vandalism but in fact they do. They are just very committed to the spirit of Wikipedia. --Node ue

195.243.10.252 08:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC) Heiko Evermann

Node_ue since you're from Arizona you shouldn't be putting others down for being from where they come from. But since they are here they must be interested in the Maori language as well. Concerning the protecting of the main page, it is interesting to note that you seem to be in the habit of deleting content from the Ladino wikipedia, to the extent that it could be considered vandalism. Auxilingua

Auxilingua, I notice you have a sort of ongoing campaign of slander against me at various Wikipedias. You seem to like to tell people that I have vandalised lad.wp. Well, I have not. And besides, you don't have much of a position there -- you're sysop why, because your buddy from ia.wp, Jay, made you one? Because of course, we all know you're from Turkey/Israel/Morocco. --Node ue 15:42, 28 Whiringa-ā-nuku 2006 (UTC)

Deprecated project

Kia ora. Please remove the link to sep11.wikipedia.org from your main page. It is no longer supposed to be linked to (check 95% of the other Wikipedias, including en:). Thank you. 11:30, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Ido language

Kia ora. Please add the Ido language (io) to the front of the page if you will. Thank you. mithridates

Redesign

Does any one agree that the main page needs a redesign? I would have a go at it, but I’m just any ordinary user (need admin access to edit the main page).

Heoi anō; nā Brian New Zealand 09:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I had a quick go see here for my design, if no one objects to it by the 18 December, I'll put it live (since my last post I have been made an admin)

Heoi anō; nā Brian New Zealand 23:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

See my final proposed redesign HERE, Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 19:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I Retreat, as User:Robin Patterson pointed out, their are, a few bugs to work thru. I will work them out, and have a second final draft soon (might be after christmas/new year, as I am about to go on a hoilday) Please feel free to leave me comments HERE, My current design is located HERE. if you view the page, and see any errors, please let me know.

Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 06:00, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Latin

Please add latin to the links on the front page. Thank you.

Logo

Please make a Maori version of the logo. 2006-02-05 17:12:08 66.177.138.113

See similar heading below. Robin Patterson 21:27, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

"Pukapuka Taki Pātauranga" was a typo

I looked at - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page_alternate_%28Classic_2004%29 - the en. Wiki main page as of 2004 and realised that that was the basis of our Hau Kāinga page. The headings equivalent to our 'Pukapuka Taki Pātauranga' and 'Iwi Whānui' were 'Encyclopedia' and 'Community.' I retranslated Community, since Iwi Whānui isnt quite right for that. Then I looked up 'Encyclopedia' in various M. dictionaries, and in the Ngata dictionary it is 'Pukapuka Taki Mātauranga'. So that explains where the mystery Pātauranga came from - a typo!!! I retranslated that heading as Mātāpunenga (encyclopedia) in accordance with what we call ourselves. I also replaced the obscure (but in the dictionary) Kohuku meaning unfinished with the plainer and more comprehensible 'hei whakaoti' 'to be completed'. Kahuroa 18:35, 14 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Revamped main page

Great stuff! Now I wonder whether "Āwhina mai - whakamāoritia!" is the best starter. We seem to have lost the invitation for first-time visitors to browse and LEARN something. A recent version had the heading "Akona" followed by "Hei tauira, titiro koa ki ēnei whārangi papai: ..."; and the sitenotice mentioned the idea of learning too. Most visitors are unlikely to contribute directly but may turn into devotees and ambassadors if they like what they read. Robin Patterson 19:33, 19 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Tēnā. Shifted stuff around - have to keep a rough balance (in the amount of content) between the two columns as well - how's that. Kahuroa 04:28, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Tino pai! I've just printed a copy (regrettably not in colour) and pinned it to the second-floor kitchenette noticeboard in Guardian Trust House, Poneke. Interesting to see that the printable version put only a single line of print to the right of the image then resumed at the bottom. Perfectly legible though. Ka kite, e hoa. Robin Patterson 19:11, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Floating logos/icons

Bother! The printed version has a more serious error: the logos for the sister projects float up to near the top of the page (p2) instead of sitting in their boxes. We need an image expert. BrianNZ?? (An alternative could be to put those on another page altogether.) Robin Patterson 21:27, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

See what BrianNZ has to say - otherwise I've got a mate I could ask Kahuroa 22:56, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

As soon as I'm at a printer (or as soon as my new ink arrives) , I'll have a look. (The the printable version link makes it look okay) Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 23:42, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

it looks ok on my system. Text beside image ok, not broken up into different sections. No floating icons. The left column is a bit skinnier than the right one, but otherwise ok. Kahuroa 08:03, 21 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

I printed it and it looks okay for me. The only complaint is the left column is smaller than the right one. (No big deal, as the main page is not likey going to be highly printed) Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 08:45, 21 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Still crook, folks! When I click for the printable version now, the logos for Ngā pūtere kōpūtahi display floating at the top of the page, so I'm not even going to try printing again. Maybe it's time for Kahuroa's mate to come on board? Or User:Grutness, another image expert? Robin Patterson 21:18, 21 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Robin: What Internet browzer are you using? 125.236.44.45 21:48, 21 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

IE; probably version 6; the main folders in C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer are dated July 2002. But we recently had parts of Office 2003 installed. Robin Patterson 23:18, 21 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Ha, I just got an email from my mate, he's doing a big OE in Montreal so probably wouldn't want to get involved! Sorry. It's actually more likely to be a minor error in the table code than anything to do with images per se. Anyway I'll redo the whole page over the next week or so, testing it on my user page. Kahuroa 08:04, 22 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine for me when its printed 125.236.44.43 20:21, 22 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all for taking an interest. My display is back to how it should be but the actual print of the printable version still floats the dear little beggars to the top of their page. I may try "temporary" solution: Give that section its own page, with links from main (so that our initial presentation is closer to flawless) and portal. Robin Patterson 21:15, 22 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Logo (moko)

The Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia image at the top left of the page should be translated into Māori too. 2006-02-21 09:07:03 203.109.164.4

Kia ora! People have been giving some thought to that. Not top priority yet. See Wikipedia:Kōrero/2005c. Robin Patterson 21:27, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Te Matatiki has a much better word for logo: waitohu. And the page could be called Waitohu o Wikipedia - funny without the 'o'. BTW Any thought been given to the transliteration of Wikipedia, since there is no d in the M alphabet? The closest would be Wikipiria - I note that Hawaiian has "Wikipikia' which is the closest you can get in Hawaiian Kahuroa 22:54, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC) copied comment to logo page Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 23:52, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Kōrero/2005c,for a Korero, about our Waitohu. (page has been there for a while now Last modified December 17, 2005) Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 23:26, 20 Hui-tanguru 2006 (UTC)

More ideas for minor main page adjustments

Should I try them direct or would you folks like to see them tried elsewhere first? Robin Patterson 20:33, 19 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Done a few little ones. I suppose I could list the bigger ones here for perusal. That will have to wait till lunchtime. Robin Patterson 22:34, 19 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

(Sorry, got tied up. And no PC at home just now.)

One important thing we need to do to improve the functionality and attractiveness of the main page is to to reduce the number of links in each section. There should be a limit as to how many there are. Too many is overkill. Kahuroa 00:25, 21 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe you should have removed those italicised links instead of just restoring their otherwise unexplained disorder (alphabetically). Cut away! Robin Patterson 01:31, 21 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Most or all of the Wikipedia reo kē appear elsewhere on the page. I'd be quite happy to lose all of the ones that don't have the justification of a Maori translation. Robin Patterson 01:31, 21 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

I think we could do without the sister projects; some other page, OK, but I see no value in having them on our main page. Robin Patterson 01:31, 21 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Please don't delete the sisters. Their value is in the colour and graphic elements they introduce. Removing them will return the main page to its bleak former state - a bland boring collection of links. Kahuroa 19:42, 21 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

I also have plans to remove 70% of the English content: everything starting from "There are at least ..." - that may please some of you! Most of what's virtually repeated on the Tomokanga hapori is unnecessary on the front page. Robin Patterson 01:31, 21 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Like your ideas re the main page - I just had to do a temporary reversion since the placement of the welcome line (in Maori) upset the format by introducing a line of colour above the heading. Once I fixed that I expanded the welcome line into a paragraph and moved some of the Maori content to the other column to keep it balanced and then tried to recreate your changes such as the removal of the extra English content (the inclusion of which wasn't my idea in the first place by the way). Many thanks!! Kahuroa 10:57, 23 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Good recent reshuffle, Kahuroa. I had been thinking that the Tīmata pēnei was a little premature near the top left, inviting response "start what?" - so your moving it to the other column and renaming is great. I had a feeling there was scope for integrating that para and the following one, but only a fluent speaker could start on that sort of task! Robin Patterson 20:25, 23 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Should the tāone nui be a subsection of Aotearoa? Maybe replace at the bottom with a short "Whenua me tāone o te Ao"? Robin Patterson 20:25, 23 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Sure - tho I'd prefer we called the new short section "Ao whānui" as a catch all for overseas stuff. Kahuroa 00:17, 24 Poutū-te-rangi 2006 (UTC)

Moved the towns without replacement, a few days ago. Problem with "Ao whānui" is that the other sections "belong" in it too, don't they? How about "Tāone nui o te Ao" (ie anything bigger than Akarana)? Robin Patterson 03:42, 10 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

Comment: We have a section Aotearoa. That is, NZ. I was suggesting another section Ao whānui = rest of world/wider world. Then you could have a subsection under that Taone nui Kahuroa 06:20, 10 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

But doesn't Ao whānui include the whole world, not just the rest of the world? And it includes tikanga and tāngata? Robin Patterson 20:20, 10 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

Not when it is contrasted with Aotearoa. You seem to have a different understanding of whānui. Ao whānui = the wide world. I like it, there's nothing wrong with it. Alternative is 'Whenua kē'. ("Whenua me taone...' is a bit anglified).Kahuroa 00:12, 11 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

That image that just went up is nice, well done! :) Heoi anō; nā Brian (talk) 00:25, 9 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

For better column balance, how about moving "Akona: he whārangi papai hei tauira" to right-hand column? Robin Patterson 03:42, 10 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

Comment:Wouldn't that make it worse? The left-hand column has a little less in it than the right as it is. Or do you mean something else by balance? Kahuroa 05:58, 10 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting - on my display in Cologne Blue skin the left-hand is longer: weta is in line with YahooNews. Maybe it's time I left that page alone and tried to add some more real content. Robin Patterson 20:20, 10 Paenga-whāwhā 2006 (UTC)

Naku i whakatakoto ētahi o ō whakaaro. Pai ake. Kia ora. Kahuroa 10:24, 18 Haratua 2006 (UTC)

Revisions

Dear Maori Wikipedians, I really enjoyed those revisions, they seemed to give it a more ethnic feel. I particularly liked the english box, as I think that ought to be a lot more ecumenical than the straight Maori look the last one had. Sure hope this place can get more sites. Cheers! Sincerely, 68.253.218.140 05:38, 23 Haratua 2006 (UTC)

Quality

I think we need to apply some criteria to the pages used as examples etc, especially those cited as "whārangi papai".

• Wikipedia style and encyclopedic content; references etc.
• Grammar - especially no elementary mistakes like lack of 'ko' etc.

Will be gradually implementing this. Kahuroa 23:10, 4 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

Ka pai. Several of the links in the whārangi papai are now so much poorer than the best of the recent additions that I would be pleased if you would either improve them or delete them from that list. Fifteen excellent pages would be better than 15 excellent plus six patchy. (Slightly different criteria should apply to the formerly-matching list in the Wikipedia:Tomokanga hapori, because of its different target audience, but your improvements would be most welcome for pages listed there too). Robin Patterson 03:55, 12 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

Link to Macedonian Wiki

Kia ora! I am an administrator from the Macedonian Wiki and I see that you have only some languages listed directly at the bottom of the page and I was wondering if you could put the Macedonian Wiki there as well (in case you don't have some special criteria for that). Should you decide to accept it, the code should look like this: [[:mk:|Māori name for the Macedonian language]]. The original name of the language in the latin alphabet is Makedonski. I don't know whether you will transliterate it into Māori from the English name or directly from the original. I leave that to you. All best and thanks a lot. Б. Јанкулоски

Kia ora anō koe - nāku nei i āpiti Kahuroa 19:20, 11 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

More revamp?

(First para copied from what Kahuroa wrote elsewhere.)
I would like to reformat the page. To do it I need all the articles under 'Awa' or 'X' to be in the category 'Awa' or 'X' and for the Awa catpage or the 'X' catpage to have been created. It's daunting to have to do everything before you can start things. Kahuroa 19:29, 13 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I thought we had a category:awa but with very little in it. Maybe not. And several other subjects that would be ideal for such a revamp are definitely not categories yet. I'm happy to help in both aspects of that, but it needs a "mi-3" to decide what the names of the categories should be. Robin Patterson 20:34, 13 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

OK - what about the titles of the subsections on the left side - like Ao Māori, Tikanga-ā-iwi, Pūtaiao - I did Maunga already or most of them - some of them may be cats already but the articles havent been tagged in some cases. Kahuroa 00:07, 14 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

Great start; I'll see if I can get something usable before heading for home tonight. Robin Patterson 00:56, 14 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

Nice

Have not viewed mi for a while. The mainpage looks Kai Pai! 125.236.44.44 03:13, 16 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)

It does indeed - good work Kahuroa et al! Grutness 05:09, 23 Pipiri 2006 (UTC)